Steem Classic, anyone?

in steem •  10 days ago  (edited)

I know, it's probably best to wait for more information, but thought I'd speculate on the announcement.

Be warned: this is pure speculation, and I could be totally wrong.

These dudes know how to groom their hair, will give 'em that. But Ned does not look like that anymore.

Edit: Here's the original announcement from Tron: https://medium.com/@TronFoundation/steemit-joining-tron-ecosystem-6ad66584d0b

Key emphasis on these lines:

TRON and Steemit’s development teams will immediately begin working together to bring Steemit and other Steem blockchain based DApps to TRON blockchain

old STEEM token to a new TRON based STEEM token, giveaways to the existing TRX users with the new TRON based STEEM token

Anyhoo, the wording in the announcement sounds very much like the Steem chain is being abandoned and much of the existing infrastructure and dApps are moved to Tron. That's speculation, but what definitely isn't is that there's a token swap coming soon to move from STEEM from the Steem chain to Tron network. The question is - how can they make such decisions without witnesses approving it?

The answer is, they can't. The Steem witnesses, and indeed, the existing Steem chain at large, will have nothing to do with the TRC STEEM token.

Does that mean witnesses are fired? Yes and no. Which means, there's going to be a split in the Steem network, one that continues the existing Steem chain, and one that moves to Tron.

Someone with better information, please educate us.

Addendum: Poloniex has confirmed the swap. Yes, the STEEM tokens are being moved wholesale to the Tron blockchain. Additionally, there are giveaways for TRX holders. I certainly hope those tokens come from Steemit Inc's stake, but either way, that's pretty bad news for inflation.

Addendum #2: Ned is more candid. In no uncertain terms, he has sold Steemit Inc to Justin Sun / Tron.

Update, 1 hour later: Others seem to be interpreting the announcement similarly. My only hope now is that the transition is gradual and well thought out. We'll find out tomorrow.

Update, 3 hours later: As mentioned above, I just wanted to clarify that we don't know the timing. It seems obvious now that as per Tron's current plans, the current Steem chain will be abandoned and everything moved over to Tron. However, what we don't know is how long this process will take, how gradual the transition will be etc. We'll find out more tomorrow.

Update #3: I'm seeing a lot of chatter about how "witnesses will decide". No, witnesses have no say in the matter. Tron has their own witnesses, the Steem witnesses are irrelevant to them. All Steem witnesses can do at this time is a) convince exchanges/Tron not to support the swap; or b) let the swap happen with TRC STEEM becoming the new STEEM, and continue the legacy chain as STEEM Classic or whatever. Of course, there'll be an interim period while infrastructure and dApps are migrating to Tron that Steem witnesses will still be needed to keep it running. But once everything is migrated to Tron, Steem witnesses will have no influence whatsoever. That is, unless Tron have some wild new plans for the migration that we haven't considered. We'll find out tomorrow, as always.

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Today, TRON joins forces with the Steem community & Steemit. We are so excited about this collaboration and value the voice of this thriving community.
By committing a meaningful percentage of the STEEM token, TRON now aligns the same interests with the Steem community, to bring the value to STEEM token, to keep the core value of decentralization, to grow a one-of-a-kind decentralized social media platform.
Steem community and Steemit team have been pioneering the decentralized social media initiative and now with this strategic partnership, together we have more resources, capital and bandwidth to make this goal achievable. The fact both TRON and STEEM went up today post the announcement only proves that the market and industry at large view this partnership as a mutually beneficial alliance. We will work closely with the Steemit team and Steem community on the details of how we will execute this collaboration step by step.
Please join us in this endeavor, follow me on Twitter @justinsuntron, and voice your opinions as we pursue this exciting journey!! Thank you!

Mild downvote only for excessive rewards not needed to maximize visbility

"The fact both TRON and STEEM went up today post the announcement only proves that the market and industry at large view this partnership as a mutually beneficial alliance."

And what does it mean now that a day has passed, and the price has crashed back to below where it was at the announcement?

It is a copy and paste response that is just the original post he made here: https://steempeak.com/steem/@justinsunsteemit/excited-about-tron-and-steem-steemit-collaboration

Right before and during your AMA, the STEEM price fell sharply. Is this a sign the industry and market does not approve of the acquisition?

Looking forward to the AMA Tomorrow Justin 🤑😎

Can you share some more details on the AMA ?

Hi @justinsunsteemit. It is great to see you here and glad to see that your values align with Steem. There are several win-wins here that we all should be working for, but, as i am sure you are aware, we have to be very careful about the way we put the vision for this to the community.
Hopefully you are aware that based on the information that you have released so far, the community is very worried about what the next steps are and there is a lot of talk about a fork away from Tron within the Steem community as many members presently see this as a hostile take over by Tron and not a mutually beneficial partnership.
In order to calm nerves and bring stability to this deal, it would be beneficial for the communities from both chains, the Tron team and the Steemit Inc. team members if you could focus on the following with @ned in tomorrow's live stream:

  1. Win-win for Tron and Steem communities - what does it look like to you?
  2. a guarantee that you are not planning on swapping out the Steem token for a TronSteem token - from what i am reading on Steem from earlier today, this would basically cause the community to immediately fork away from Tron
  3. A guarantee that a win-win will be created by having Tron integrated into Steemit.com so that a dual relationship can work where both a Tron based token and the original Steem token can coexist on the same platform
  4. a guarantee / commitment that the current ongoing work on SMTs and communities development on steem will be continued to completion
  5. A guarantee that tokens currently listed on exchanges as the current Steem token will remain as such, and that the new Tron-Steem token will be a separate entity on exchanges

From what i have picked up today, these are the main concerns from the community and closing these items out in the live stream tomorrow would benefit everyone. Additionally, positive answers to these items will almost certainly result in token price boosts to both Tron and Steem and a sustainable growth together in the future. Taking on board what the community is saying, un-clear resolution of these issues will likely result in a break down in the deal and a hit to reputations on all sides, as well as a hard fork.

I bet Twitter is a better way to get through to him since I can't imagine him personally reading his Steem replies at this time. His PR team likely is managing this account.

i think he has a management team running that as well :)

Ahhhhh, and you're likely right. It was my hope that his management team would be more effective/rational/responsible/everything. How foolish of me.

  ·  9 days ago 

Great annocunment and now STEEM is famous thank you!
!thumbup

Hello @justinsunsteemit! You are amazing!


command: !thumbup is powered by witness @justyy and his contributions are: https://steemyy.com
More commands are coming!

"...there's going to be a split in the Steem network, one that continues the existing Steem chain, and one that moves to Tron."

Not sure about this actually. A 'legacy' Steem would in fact be a new token, since @steemit holds enough Steem to vote in witnesses to effect whatever code Tron seeks to implement.

We'll see what comes, but I am deeply troubled by the prospect of Tron assuming control of Steem. Steem is presently the only vector for my posts. I have been banned, blocked, or unwilling to use other platforms due to censorship issues, and if Tron significantly changes Steem's censorship resistance - which I believe is certain, due to it's dependence on China - Steem will no longer be available to me.

That being the case, I'd like to here and now express my appreciation for all you've taught me during my tenure on Steem. If I get the boot, I will miss your insight and forthright speech.

Thanks!

If there was to be a Steem Classic, it's quite likely Steemit Inc's stake would be burned out. The code for that already exists, written by an ex-Steemit dev last year. (I forget his name)

Amen. Frankly this is much less of a disruption to the network and much smaller of a consensus protocol change than migrating the entire ecosystem to a new blockchain.

does that mean i can swap my steem for some tron tokens AND keep my other forked steem AND we might actually have a decentralized platform?

That depends on when the snapshot is taken. If you swap after the snapshot for forked Steem, then yes.

yes i wanna see some statements from the current witnesses, how many people are actually following them and stuff. i'd have to listen to justin today. i'll wait and see, but i don't like the fact that they're setting up a swap between steem and some other token(?).

Would there be enough drive to build upon Steem Classic? Devs and Witnesses seemed to largely rest on their laurels for their past contributions and farm these days... I don't see them surging to change their stripes after the initial shock passes here.

Good question. This is a bit different as this is the first time there's an existential threat to witnesses. There are many ways to merge Steem with Tron, but one way listed in the original announcement is simply moving all dApps, tokens and infrastructure (including Steemit.com of course) straight to Tron. If that happens, Steem witnesses will effectively be made redundant. So, they have much more motivation to do something about it than ever before.

The fact that Steemit holds enough Steem to control the network is worrying!

The dont appear to use that influence but maybe now under new management it will change.
Maybe that wont be so bad and may even clear a path to achieving wider adoption rather than the shrinking real user base.

They don’t

I haven't heard this opinion before from someone apparently as experienced and knowledgeable regarding software development (I had a look). Can you provide some basis for your opinion? Mine is based on my understanding of the initial ninjamine, and while Steemit didn't completely dominate that process, combined with certain well-haired former CEOs, my understanding was that it could bring in new witnesses with stake to spare.

Thanks!

You're not wrong, but try to be concerned instead of worried. Worry is bad for your heart, I hear.

First Steem fork Golos has experienced something similar: in August 2019 old Golos team migrated to a new EOSIO-based blockchain, while old Golos was saved by witnesses, and also old founders stakes were frozen.

That's interesting. Are there any detailed articles about it? Hope the current Steem witnesses can study that and decide what to do.

No detailed articles in English unfortunately.

The blockchain survived the fork and "Golos classic" is still alive, but to be honest, not a great success. The blockchain is pretty dead, as for the token value. No liquidity at all.

Here a similar stats post I publish on the about Golos classic.

your statistic quote strange, it looks like you didn't shift it after hf, you showing something there that makes no sense in modern reality, in another hand golos.id have a steady development and the token worth more than tokens cyberscamm+golosio combined. Also, they HAVE liquidity at the markets it trades, I don't know why you talking that it has no value. It sims like your not tracking the progress and making false accusations based on your own very strange statistic that trace the trading from bittrex that didn't work at least for a year

If the shitposting is a definition of "alive" for you it's truly sad, but we don't need shitposters activity on our platform and will continue to fight this, simple as that.

My comment about liquidity and value is not based on my financial post, but on my personal experience with exchanges.
Even if it is correct to say that the classic-GOLOS token value worth more than cyberway-GOLOS, true liquidity is not there too. Without even mentioning the fact that there is no exchange(s) referenced on coinmarketcap for the classic-GOLOS token, which doesn't help.

This said you are partially right: I do not use Bittrex but I was indeed tracking the wrong token, something I need to fix.

Anyway, the stats published on golod.id (and linked into my comment) is reflecting the exact activity of the "golos classic" blockchain, not the activity of the golos smart-contract on the Cyberway blockchain.

While I truly admire the work you are doing on golos classic (great ideas and a truly decentralized development supported by community devs!), we have to admit that user retention and growth are not there.

You're right again when stating shitposting doesn't really make a platform alive. And looking at my last stats (no new user registration, except on 2020-02-01, post and comments going down a few hundred per day, number of transactions on the network following the same path, ...), I do not see more signs of healthy activity.

Of course, all of that doesn't mean that Cyberway is doing better.

I really don't think I'm making false accusations. I enjoyed so much the old good time when I was fully invested in the Golos project. I only note, with sadness, something that seems obvious: these projects are not at their best.

That's not surprising, the money usually goes where the reputation is.

To be fair, the 'new EOS based Golos' does not make any better performance the 'Golos classic' do.

You are assuming a lot of things friend.

Anyhoo, the wording in the announcement sounds very much like the Steem chain is being abandoned and much of the existing infrastructure and dApps are moved to Tron.

So much of that sounds downright impossible. Do you have previous experience with Justin Sun? Everything out of his mouth is an over-hyped lie. I don't understand why the market is still perma-bullish whenever he opens his mouth. Nothing he says has the weight that is implied.

Have you read any of TRONS documentation? Lot of its is so arbitrary and that is putting it lightly.

This is me every 5 reading that crap.
kqc5ps.gif

To think that Justin thinks he could slap Steem in top of Tron shows just how disconnected he is and it irks the hell out of me.

But you know what really is bugging me is how people here are acting towards him. Well guess we learned a lesson.

Just say no to ninjamine!

How are people here acting towards him?
In my experience most are rejecting him completely.

Personally I think it's nice that he's just a hype man.
Way too ignorant to pull off any kind of crazy hostile takeover without major help from Steemit Inc.

Seeing a bit of brown nosing. Others are likely just under the spell / less discerning.

It's no secret that a lot of people here just care about the dollar signs.
Unfortunately they don't see the vision of long term success.

Chinese investors trust their own big names

TRON and Steemit’s development teams will immediately begin working together to bring Steemit and other Steem blockchain based DApps to TRON blockchain

old STEEM token to a new TRON based STEEM token, giveaways to the existing TRX users with the new TRON based STEEM token

I don't think I'm assuming much. Can you interpret these statements from Tron's official announcement any other way?

No, I don't know much about Justin Sun, but certainly significant capital believes in him. As evidenced by Tron's $1.75b market cap, #12 on CMC, and STEEM's uptick since the announcement.

Loading...
  ·  10 days ago (edited)

you dont need to wait it is pure game theory regarding the voice launch. Wrote about it in december:

lauch3d 62 Dec 11, 2019

Now when Sun buys Steem(it) there is the following problem:

destroying Steemit or even the game mechanics of the Steem chain (which is not impossible) would kill the competition which Steem is, which would be a gift to Dan and Block.One.

pumping capital into Steemit.Inc and the head developer team would benefit Steem but it also would bring Sun return, which is kind of a hedge.

doing nothing...well would probably end in favor of Block.one

--> so he would be better off buying Steemit.Inc as an investor.

Why has Poloniex delisted STEEM right before Sun revealed his investment in Poloniex? Was he interested in weakening Steemit.Inc?

Im getting the fuck out. This wont end well.
Justin doesnt give a shit about a few million so he probably wont negotiate.
A split community loses and CZ is friends with Justin so he will just delist legacy Steem.

Wer fucked. Ill pay attention to what happens but most likely im out... Was a good run.

Same

Let's wait for the AMA at least...

Does that mean that the original Steem blockchain can continue developing or is this the end?

TRON and Steemit’s development teams will immediately begin working together to bring Steemit and other Steem blockchain based DApps to TRON blockchain

Sounds pretty clear that this is the end.

Other developers are free to continue working on it. (Hence the Steem Classic thing)

this is going to be a mess

Not sure how this works.

If the witnesses were able to make a divergent blockchain right now, would we be able to fully escape the Tron's Black Sun? Or has Ned had some kind of secret ownership keys all along that locks up everything the current witnesses are capable of?

well it depends on if Tron/Justin is willing to use the Steem stake formerly owned by Stinc to just vote in his own puppet block producers. It isn't a secret key, it is just that Steem was never actually really decentralized - Steemit, Inc. just didn't use its huge stake to vote for witnesses. Nothing to say that Tron won't use the stake, and actually given Tron's reputation as more or less a centralized blockchain run by Justin / Tron foundation, I would be a little surprised if they DON'T use the stake.

Ninjamine... Not even once

The witnesses can fork current Steem, fork out the Steemit Inc stake, and having done both of that this new chain will effectively be rid of Tron's influence, yes. Of course, whether this new chain's token will be worth anything is a different matter.

Anyone can fork Steem doesn’t have to be an existing witness

Yes, sure, but no one's going to support a random fork.

If forked before Justin sets up his own witnesses? Before anything happens and the ninjamine is forked out?
He would have to set up a whole chain from scratch. That might work.

Justin already has his witnesses set up on Tron. He doesn't want to set up any new chain or fork, just move everything over to Tron.

To steem classic

Tron could be part of creating "Light accounts" on the platform perhaps. Lets wait for more info, im sure the space is big enough for new steem 2.0 and steem classic if that happens.

That was a separate development, before the Tron migration was planned I'm sure.

i know it is.

I like the idea about this being how lite-accounts are created.
We shall see.

This what we get for not forking stinc out earlier, imo.
I'm following whichever fork gets it right.
I've till got my golos keys, but that blond ass smashed golos a long time ago.

The original community, that was there at the launch of Golos kept the original chain going along with the chain-id, a community developer team, did a few protocol upgrades, worker system, etc.

Also original Golosid tokens are valued higher than CYBER+Golosio tokens combined, so I don't see why original STEEM community can't follow suit.

Also, back in 2017, I wrote some napkin scribbles that upgrade the STEEM system to be more attention economy thing, and friends tried to launch an EOSIO based LetItPlay, as the ICO didn't work out and happen we were even approached by Justin Sun about it, but that didn't work out.

So, with community support, those plans and the LetItPlay Dev team could support the original STEEM chain, with the upgrades, that would bring value to original STEEM chain.

Yes, if steem-engine and blocktrades stays functional we have our gateways, steem can survive a meltdown of the ninjamine.
We are better positioned to do that now than pre mira and rc's.

Which golos has the blond viking?

I need a LOT of opinions here.

I'm sure you'll find a lot given how unclear the announcement is...

At least the news has been confirmed by @ned now: https://twitter.com/realNedScott/status/1228364811622322178

There was no doubt about that as Tron announced it first, the question is the true nature of this change.

Great analysis, thank you. The discussion spurred my multiple comments regarding Golos is a pertinent point that other people seem to have forgotten about. I'm glad your readers are able to recall, remember, and draw parallels between current happenings and the past.

Time is the key here, and we can also think that this might give us new opportunities.

Absolutely, timing will be crucial.

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We won't see you again steemit.com and we will see decentralized steemitclassic.com and steemit.com as a tron owner? Or steemit.com it will remain classic and the throne will have a new domain? I am very concerned about this issue. Also I am interested in the question what will happen if the witnesses can't hold steemit.com separate.

Tron owns Steemit.com now, they can do whatever they want with it.

It is clear, that means if there is a fork, we will move to the stemmitclassic.com domain or similar.

Yes, that's right. Other frontends like Steempeak may also choose to run on the fork etc.

Insane things are afoot!

Sure is. This was one of the outcomes I was worried about. The ideal situation would be acquiring Steemit Inc, maintaining status quo with the current Steem chain, and gradually over time building bridges to Tron, and perhaps in a future integrating it as a shard of Tron or whatever. This seems too disruptive to me.

Agreed, the method you describe makes much more sense by slowly creating some sort of chain interoperability bridge instead of attempting to migrate to a new chain. Knowing Steem's HF history there seems to be ample opportunity for an epic clusterfuck.
Token swap? Is that even necessary?
You bring up important points about the witnesses... I guess we'll see over the next few days.

I wonder how much of a factor the Voice launch played in this decision.

The timing is absolutely no coincidence. It's obvious they rushed this through without much due diligence. I'm still hopeful they'll clarify some things tomorrow, but the plan as it currently stands needs some serious rethinking.

Lol I prefer being called steemthereum Tron can keep steem classic

Confusing times! If the steem tokens are moving to the tron platform, what happens to steemit and how are the STEEM going to be mined from here on? What happens to SBD? My head is eploding LOL!

STEEM tokens are being moved to Tron, as dApps are migrating to Tron. Answers to your questions are pending and hopefully coming tomorrow, but at this time it seems like they'll move the entire Steem network to Tron gradually.

Have their been any official announcements from DApps or users that they are on board for the migration? At this point, it feels to me like Steemit + Tron have mounted a coordinated attack the network. Would need to see major user and DApp signalling of support in order to support the migration.

Open blockchains aren't supposed to have major decisions made behind closed doors with no stakeholder consultation. The migration to TRON is 100% dependent on the current Steem community adopting it.

So far, I haven't seen anything. The only confirmation is Poloniex is supporting the swap to TRC STEEM. We have seen in the past that crypto communities will follow where the money goes. Right now, the big money and influence is with Tron.

which doesn't really mean anything (Poloniex supporting the swap)... because Tron owns Poloniex LOL

Discussed this in some other comments. Whilst it's true that an investor group led by Justin Sun owns Poloniex, I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It does, they will swap the existing STEEM tokens to the new TRC STEEM token. Whether the other exchanges follow suit remains to be seen. In the end, the market will decide, but be rest assured as currently planned there's absolutely a split to be decided.

  ·  9 days ago (edited)

There are hardly any existing STEEM tokens on Poloniex because they delisted it a while back. Even then, it was barely used (the delisting was entirely reasonable on low-volume grounds).

Other, more important, exchanges may very well follow suit, but I would agree that Poloniex itself doesn't mean anything here.

Poloniex has actually been staging a bit of a comeback under the new management. But fair enough, as mentioned before, we'll have to wait and see what other exchanges do. As many have pointed out, Binance / CZ is closely allied with Tron / Sun. If Binance supports the swap, that'll pretty much be the confirmation we need.

yeah for sure. It is funny even with the chatter about witnesses forking out the Stinc stake, that is pretty much irrelevant given the plan to issue new Steem tokens on Tron network. Whether or not Stinc stake is forked out of the old chain has nothing at all to do with Tron's ability to issue tokens on their own chain. You are right that the only important thing is if the exchanges go along with the token swap, which in the long run it is hard to see how they would do otherwise given the resources that Tron has vs. the resources that any Steem Classic chain would have. We will see how decentralized Steem is in the coming weeks. Probably not very decentralized is my bet, I can't really see a Steem Classic (or what have you) succeeding on its own in any meaningful sense.

Exactly, the old Steemit Inc stake doesn't really matter. If Tron has exchanges on their side, a majority of stakeholders are likely to jump ship to the new Steem on Tron. The swap on Poloniex sets an important precedent here. It's basically a $1.7 billion network versus a bunch of randos, the odds are heavily stacked in Tron's favour. Obviously, Tron will never agree to status quo, they want to recoup their investment, so a migration to Tron is inevitable. The best outcome for current witnesses will be negotiating a truce and a more gradual transition.

PS: For a Steem Classic, that's where they'll need to fork out Steemit Inc's stake, otherwise Tron could take control of both networks.

I just hope they don’t make it an utter mess! fingers crossed

Given Steem's history with hardforks, I think we'll need to cross a lot of fingers...

Golden Cross :D

Yeah, better golden than a death cross! lol.

nothing better than greencross. i gotcha!

Yesterday I was thinking, not buying steem at 0.12$ was a regret, and now after reading this, I think, may be it was good to hold any further buying till things clears out. And all the SPs anyway are prone to the risk, but there is nothing we could do, with a 13 weeks power down. I think, we will definitely see some more updates in 1-2 week on where we are heading.

I'm gonna power down all my alts and this😢😲

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I'm all in for STEEM Classic. To heck with Tron!

Meh...I need to know a lot more before I do anything. No info, no roadmap, no decision from me. I don't jump at political hype, so screw Tron until Justin says something of substance. None of us need Stinc!

It all depends what Justin Sun has to offer, I am also not against a partnership, if it is in the interest of both Steem and Tron, this can also bring Steemit back as a top crypto project. Alternatively, it is also possible that the Steem blockchain forks off into Steem Classic and burns the Steemit stake like mentioned by @liberosist and continues to operate as is with DApp support and only Steemit Inc moving to Tron. Exciting times ahead of us but hoping for a good solution :)