One Currency To Unite Them AllsteemCreated with Sketch.

in steem •  4 months ago  (edited)

The biggest problem I see within Steem as a currency, is the fact that the global rewards pool is creating sub cultures within Steem itself.

Instead of having one big community of people and stakeholders who believe in Steem (the currency) for similar reasons, we‘ve got different groups with different ideals.

Some find that Steem should be distributed without thinking about your own profits.

Some find that Steem is a great asset to be invested in as it gives you the ability to reward your friends and followers and thus grow your power.

Some find that Steem is a great asset with a high APR due to excessive vote-selling & self-voting.

.... and the lost goes on and on.

But who’s right? What happens when different ideals clash against each other?

Whale flag wars is what happens, splitting the community even further and hitting innocent targets on both sides.

What‘s the optimal situation?

Well, let’s take Bitcoin as an example.

Everyone who’s invested in Bitcoin is most likely in it for similar reasons or at least believes in the same bitcoin ideals, which are simple and short: Value!

This strengthens the bond between individual stakeholders and attracts new investors, as there is a clear path made by Bitcoin believers.

If we compare Steem side by side, people from the outside might be attracted by groups who claim that Steem is an amazing asset for APR, but once they get here and try to optimize their APR, they’ll be greeted by a commando of newSteem believers, who are flagging exactly that behavior. Said user will most likely leave, as his/her expectations weren’t met.

What’s the solution?

We need a Steem that is universally positive and attracts and retains stakeholders from all categories who believe in Steem.

And I do think there is a solution:

Remove or drastically reduce the global rewards pool, add a passive inflation source for stakeholders instead and let SMTs do the rest.

The main currency should be as little opinionated as possible, while unique SMTs can decide on their own what behavior they will allow and thus which categories of stakeholders they want to attract.

Wolf

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@therealwolf you are both absolutely right and oddly, also wrong. Let me explain...

You are right that Steem is struggling with being splintered into many different ideologies and that it is harming the system. I hate the idea of the reward pool going away, but after quite a bit of meditation on the subject, it is likely the thing to do.

However, there is a caveat. The issue is that by removing the POB system for STEEM and passing it down the line to SMTs we are actually admitting that POB isn't working while not saying it out loud. Would POB on SMTs work? In most cases, probably not.

I have thought about this a lot and I would like to see POB work, but there is a hitch. The main challenge is that people keep using POB as a weapon against people they disagree with.

It really comes down to this, we all want a decentralized protocol, but all of us have something we dislike and do not want happening on that protocol. It could be spam, porn, circle-jerking, self-voting or something less anticipated.

So, thus we have downvotes and not just upvotes. There are legitimate reasons for downvotes/flags, but then follows ideological warfare, bullying and censorship/demonetization issues. "That one guy supports Trump and I just so happen to have way more SP than him, so lets auto-flag trail the motha-..."

Will SMTs really solve that?

Hold the fucking phone... So, we're going to solve this with SMTs? Okay, but that's not going to solve it. If an SMT decides to make their token not have downvotes then we run into the same issue of no enforcement against bad shit, or some dude buying a shit ton of the token and upvoting himself 10 times a day for posting "stake preservation post" or something stupid like that.

On the other hand, even with niche topics if downvoting exists for an SMT we'll run into the same problems. Sure, you can find more like-minded people with a more narrow topic, but that does not mean that everyone on that topic shares the same ideological viewpoints, and if they do not agree the downvote feature can fuel ideological warfare and silo mentality that breeds extremism.

For example, let's say a Christian community decides to create Christoken, the token that rewards people for praising the Lord! Sounds like a nice idea to begin with, but wait... There are a lot of Christian denominations! They pretty much all disagree with each other on some kind of ideological stance, and are angry at the other group over that difference.

In Closing...

The lack of a downvote button leads to an uncontrollable situation, and the existence of a downvote button leads to the encouragement of narrow thinking and the oppression of dissenting opinions. Fixing Steem's problems by pushing those problems onto SMTs is not a fix at all. POB is in trouble, and we need to recognize that and deal with it head on.

How do we do that?

its a complicated issue, off the top of my head I do not have a solution for fixing the flaws of POB. But I believe it is important for everyone to admit that POB in its current design does not work so that we can fix it.

If people are afraid to admit this in fear of STEEM price going down in the short term, it could hurt Steem in the long term. We need to be brutally honest about the network's flaws so that we can discuss it and fix it.

One possible solution is removing POB from STEEM and keeping it only in SMTs with incredible flexibility baked into the protocol. If SMTs can try many different forms of POB, we might discover successful forms of it.

For example, people argue that having POB without downvotes does not work, and then they point out whaleshares. But it might not be that whaleshares is a failure due to downvotes, the project might have failed simply because too few people believed in it or it simply didn't offer anything Steem did not offer already.

So, SMTs can allow many projects to experiment with their own versions of POB, as long as we provide great flexibility in their POB features. And the POB designs that work best will shine through over time.

Good thoughts. I don't think a community policing the rest of the community is something that is going to be very attractive to the rest of the world. It's simply way too negative. People want to go to places that make them feel good, not bad. No matter how much "we" try to normalize the downvote experience it is still a negative one, even more so when money is involved. There is a reason Facebook doesn't have a dislike button.

I agree. I do not believe the downvote button is a good idea. That said, there is a legitimate reason people want it to exist. Facebook is centralized, at any time they can remove a person's content, but on a decentralized protocol like Steem there is absolutely no stopping people without something like a downvote button.

The issue with the downvote button is not that it exists, but that it can be used unfairly and unjustly. I also agree with you that it makes people feel unhappy and can deter people from continuing to use Steem. Primarily though, my concern is that downvotes are a matter of whim and are used for whatever one feels like using it for. This can cause it to create narrow-mindedness as one community of ideals can be stomped on by a bigger and wealther community.

To remove all STEEM author and curator rewards and to replace them with SMTs is the only way forward, in my opinion. See also

Steem on!

  ·  4 months ago (edited)

Also, there are a couple possible downsides to this, which need to be considered. One being that it will likely entrench the current witnesses in their spots forever. As they continue to collect inflation while no one else does, it will get harder and harder for them to ever be removed, not a deal breaker, but something we need to be aware of. EOS faces the same problem. A reward pool helps with this.

Then there is also the problem of exactly how much value an SMT will actually bring to steem. With Ether there are gas fees that ERC20 tokens pay to transact. Steem won't have these, which means beyond the one time steem purchase to setup the SMT and then needing a relatively small amount for resource credits, will there be enough of a 'tie-to-steem' to boost steem prices if the SMT does well?! Something I am not sure of at the moment.

I am not for or against at the moment, just trying to brainstorm a bit.

Also, there are a couple possible downsides to this, which need to be considered. One being that it will likely entrench the current witnesses in their spots forever. As they continue to collect inflation while no one else does, it will get harder and harder for them to ever be removed, not a deal breaker, but something we need to be aware of. EOS faces the same problem. A reward pool helps with this.

Stakeholders would receive inflation as well. But the inflation witnesses receive isn’t merely enough to keep them in their spots forever.

Then there is also the problem of exactly how much value an SMT will actually bring to steem. With Ether there are gas fees that ERC20 tokens pay to transact. Steem won't have these, which means beyond the one time steem purchase to setup the SMT and then needing a relatively small amount for resource credits, will there be enough of a 'tie-to-steem' to boost steem prices if the SMT does well?! Something I am not sure of at the moment.

People would want to have it for SMTs, RCs, staking inflation and as a means of payment. There should be sinks added for SMTs which go hand in hand of decreasing the supply of Steem.

They are trying this Gedankenexperiment on Whaleshares
Well, the rewards to 0 thing, not the SMTs
;)

It's not the same "Gedankenexperiment", not even close. Whaleshares is a useless token and implementing it as a tipping system is not what I was referring to.

The point is they are planning to get rid of their reward pool in favor of something else.

  ·  4 months ago Reveal Comment

Not sure why, but this seems to be .. offensive?

They are trying this Gedankenexperiment on Whaleshares
Well, the rewards to 0 thing, not the SMTs
;)

Why should it matter what Whaleshares does? They've f*cked up their platform more than enough times. I'm referring to removing the reward pool in favour of a SMT which takes it place. AFAIK, whaleshares will keep their tipping system.

...removing steem author and curator rewards... 🤔

You would earn SMTs instead of STEEM/SBD/STEEM POWER as rewards.

What are SMTs and what good would it bring to users instead of STEEM/SBD/STEEM POWER?

SMTs are little Steem clones, living inside the Steem blockchain. The difference would be that STEEM would stop being a token for authors & curators, and start being a token for SMTs to be built upon.

From what it sounds, are we not wanting Steem tokens to turn into SMT tokens?

I kinda understand why there is SBD and Steem power in the Steem Blockchain where Steem should be the number one token in its own blockchain. Like how are there MBTCs in the Bitcoin blockchain?

..it's just me here. ✋

  ·  4 months ago (edited)

I have considered this as well. Will SMTs have any value though? It will be very difficult if not impossible for them to get on a major exchange. Also, does this kill the main value driver for steem? Does it transition steem to just a base layer where something of value will need to be built upon to give it value?

But there wouldn't be any drama??

;0D

Drama is exactly what keeps new investors away.

I know, just joshing!

I know!

What this post really says:

If this is what is planned down the line then I really should start leaving asap...

It's good to find and set a common goal for steem users. then all users might unite and move steem toward that goal.
But I don't think, removing or replacing the reward pool can help achieve this purpose.

We already milked enough STEEM from the reward pool and now trying to prevent others from milking it. I see these types of suggestions all over the comments and chat platforms.

Do we really need to affect STEEM price by reducing its inflation rate? I think instead we can focus on onboarding new users and not just investors. If we only focus on investors, we will lose our real value, the real users of Steem, who are more valuable than investors.

I think we should make it possible for outsiders to understand Steem and start using Steem by just a few clicks. We can focus more on non-tech users and make everything for them.

We are writing posts for each other inside a circle! Who else is gonna read this comment? no one! Maybe just a few steemians. We lack in the number of real users. I agree we have other problems too and it's just one of them.

(sorry if all is not related to the root post)

We lack in the number of real users.

And now, we need to find ways to make Steemians into users.

Why aren't you taking in consideration the argument that says that to distribute a currency far and wide, you need to give it for free. The more people use steem, the better it is and the more useful it becomes as a currency. If someone earns steem just by posting he is 1000X times more likely to know about it, buy it, hodl it, then bring over his friends etc...

However, if people only earn SMTs, then they'll only talk about those SMTs. I agree with you in the long term. If Steem ever manages to have a huge network effect and capture almost all the crypto market like Bitcoin and Eth, then yes, what you say makes sense.

But until then, let's keep things this way because we want more people to adopt STEEM as a currency. What I am saying is especially true if a company will hodl STEEM to provide RCs to its users without them even knowing about STEEM.

Totally agree to this.

The more people use steem, the better it is and the more useful it becomes as a currency.

Exactly.

I think it's just a bit too early to call for eliminating author reward pool at this point, because it feels like it is a reaction to decreasing STEEM value, thus being motivated by fear. Maybe it's the right move, but why don't we see first how the EIP turns out? Yeah, it's a bit of a turmoil right now (still, a war I think is quite an exaggeration). I rather think of it as disagreements which are impossible to avoid, that's just a fundamental part of reality (not getting into metaphysics here though). Now, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some general direction taken, but I see disagreements as a necessary component on reaching that consensus.

Anyway, I still like the idea of people having the ability to become Steem investors through the rewardpool, making for a robust blockchain for the future with good distribution (which is much better now with the EIP). Yes, some are just selling their rewards, however, those interested being on Steem for the long term I think are often favored by the stakeholders. It's a good thing quality is rewarded at this point, because those who've worked hard on their content, are also more likely to stay here long term. This way we will have a very diverse and rich group of people as part of the stake holders. Maybe that'll come with some additional friction when not all might understand the vision and agree on the roadmap, but I still see power in diversity; we can't avoid disagreements, because that's just part of our fundamental reality (not getting deeper into the metaphysics though). Disagreements are fine and good thing to have when they can be discussed in a healthy manner (even though there are a lot of immature people on Steem, at least this is not Facebook where discussion can be shut down like in a tyranny). It's a necessary part of finding the trajectory we should be aiming at.

I'm still open to the idea of closing the STEEM reward pool, but I think we first have to see how SMTs behave – they're already going to create sinks for STEEM and draw in investors who can use Steem not to just earn more Steem in an unhealthy manner, but via Resource Credit delegation to dapps. Coupled with decreasing inflation (according to current trajectory), I could see Steem returnings becoming inferior anyway when people are focusing on dapps.

What would people sell SMTs for?

Depends on what kind of entity is launching the SMT, but businesses could utilize them by providing some products for an exchange. Splinterlands is sort of doing a similar thing already with Dark Energy Crystals (the difference that now its just on the Steem-Engine platform which is not decentralized like SMTs will be) which is the in-game currency of the game. Lots of different use cases that SMTs can be applied for.

Yes, but how are users going to get value out of DEC if they can't exchange it for something else?

If SMTs are nothing more than "in-store credit". Then, what's the point? That already exists in our world right now. We don't need a public blockchain for that. Companies should just run their own private chains instead.

Unless the whole point is making STEEM harder to get. Then, I get ya.

Yes, but how are users going to get value out of DEC if they can't exchange it for something else?

It can be exchanged to STEEM on Steem-Engine. For SMTs there will be a decentralized marketplace where all the tokens are paired with STEEM, so you can buy and sell tokens all you want, they have monetary value attached to them. The amount of it depends on the type of business/community and how well they manage to create utility for it.

Companies should just run their own private chains instead.

That is going to be much more costly and harder plan when instead you can easily just create a token for a fee on a platform where all the bottom work is done for you. Think of Steem as the Wordpress for cryptocurrencies – creating something that used to be technical coding stuff with a visual UI. Creating a SMT in a second is going to be much more attractive than figuring private chain solutions.

Okay. That was what I was clarifying. The SMTs would have to derive value from STEEM.

I am hesitant about getting rid of the reward pool, but hey, it'll make STEEM more scarce that way.

I have the same thought.

Thinking of ways to get investors in, in a way is not "pure investment" (market manipulation) but to be part of a great contribution for Steemians.

The situation could be a lot better if people would read the whitepaper of a project before they invest into it. Or understand why stuff is named the way it is (content/curation rewards...).
If someone's expectations aren't met they either didn't research even the basics, or the system fails to work as intended. I prefer when the former group leaves.

Calling those who care about the idea behind steem "newSteem commando" is hilarious. There's lots of projects that had a high APR in their whitepaper, it's never been the idea of steem.

But what is your solution for it?

I think if the System is abuse save and the only way to use steem is one direction is not bad.

And we see, content curation is not that easy. Because it is to subjective.

100% Freedoms with Votes or no Freedom ( except spam).

I m with wolf and see SMTs the only solution to dont Split up the main currency Steem.

Whats your opinion about it?

I think SMTs will have the same issues.
I don't mind splitting from people who don't think about the community but just their own wallets. Except of their initial investment, which they cash out at some point anyway - in addition to the steem they made while holding - they don't bring anything to the table here. What they do is making steem a pyramid scheme, instead of a crypto with a real use case.

Its True,

I think with SMTs Oppinion Flagging can be reduced.

But why should someone invest in Steem? You need to do something with it, because of the inflation. Its the same with money.

With more Usecases like RC Delegation or something like this, the problem could be partially solved.

And dont get me wrong, im 100% with you i dont want any kind of ponzi here.

As more usecases come with Steem, it get value itself.

You think Steem should used long Term rewarding blogging?

I think Steem can be more a Toolbox, for Web applications and development. Because Steem can be for this really usefull for real word problems.

Otherwise i dont know how it should work. If someone like to reward for example "Gaming Content" and the next one think "Gaming content " is worth not a single cent, we have the problem.

The same with any kind of content.

If here for example 10 million user, that like cat picture, makeup toturial and so on. large Stakeholder should only downvote Spam and abuse in my opinion.

Curation rewards + the dividend on SP are enough to beat inflation, even with not-optimized curation. Everything above is rent seeking. And contrary to FIAT, we use the inflation to grow the platform, which makes everyone's holdings worth more in the end. If the platform takes off, the inflation is neglegible. Nobody complained about BTC inflation the last years, did they?

I'm on the fence on the topic of switching all rewards to SMT only. There's benefits and drawbacks. We'll first have to see how SMT work out I think.

Self-rewarding is abuse, all forms of it, be it self-votes, selling votes, or trading votes.

I think with bitcoin is the point users of this think " there are max 21 000000".

So is more about the feeling.

With Steem we need easy rules in code.

Otherwise it is for one user abuse, another think its not.

If we have game rules in code, there are overall force people to use Steem in a good way, there will use it.

Like Self upvote yes but only with 25% power. If you want to abuse with another account, there can be a pattern. If you vote for 1 account more then for example 50%. The reward get cuted ( or 10%).

Think about this like a computer game. Everyone wants to win. If the way you win, all players win, you have a really good eco System.

If the Rules are open, we come to the point we have today.

One say NONONONONONO thats not okay you only reward your followers,

Another say " yes thats the reason im here on Steem".

We can be open for all, or have strict rules in code to force users the way is best for steem.

If the best way to go for one user, the direction is good for all users, we go in the same direction :)

Those kind of rules always have loopholes, or they would be implemented already. If you cut rewards for repeated voting on one account, those who want to abuse just create a lot more accounts.
Of course gamification is an important part of steem. And downvotes are a part of the game ;)

Btw, steem's inflation is going down too, we also have an upper limit of coins that will exist.

  ·  4 months ago (edited)

you are 100% right :)

There are always ways to abuse. Maybe with cut rules, abusers start to delegate in a crazy way :D

We need a Steem that is universally positive and attracts and retains stakeholders from all categories who believe in Steem.

Not possible.

Not when major stakeholders have different ideals. Even on different tribes, the way things are set up show there exist different ideas of how things should be.

The phase to have a "unified" vision has long passed when STINC decided to go for a "hands off" approach. The only way to attain that vision now is for majority stake to completely strong arm their way into reality; whether it be through consensus (underlying code) or brute force (via @grumpycat style).

People are going to be people. Without a central authority we need to get used to the idea there is going to be a diversity of views on how things work. Doesn't matter what. Instead of trying to engineer people into one viewpoint, there needs to be more effort on making not only easy to come onboard but to use the platform once people arrive.

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While I agree with some of your thoughts outlined here, I downvoted the piece to counteract your generous 100% self-vote of almost 5 STU in a small way. At least you have the decency not to hide the greed, I give you that, but I find your behavior very disappointing.

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This could also solve the high inflation problem that STEEM currently has, partly due to the rewards pool and secondly due to the SBD peg and all the SBD converted to STEEM. If high inflation was solved, this would naturally attract more investors and would make STEEM more valuable.

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I'm in for decreasing inflation, but I'm afraid we would lose utility - we're already struggling with lack of it...

Not to mention the crazy SBD pump cycle feeding back into payouts and creating hyper inflation hangovers.

  ·  4 months ago (edited)Reveal Comment

biggest problem is cunts lioke u :)

Remove the steem reward pool is more like it. Steemit should probably get their own smt's...

I don't know if all these make sense because I'm not technically informed about the matter. However, it sounds like.

finally a post with some real common sense.....this is exactly why i have you as a witness.

I completely agree with this or at least a close version of this as I have posted about before. Steem needs to be the gateway coin that opens the doors to all that the blockchain has to offer, which is a very diverse set of offerings. Figuring out how to get rid of SBDs would also help imo.

i m with you. One big vision would be a key.

i would like to see if its a way to stack Steem in a SMT. So the SMT itself has some RC too.

This should be for beginner way more easy to use, because there can post and comment without having Steem.

But they use Steem thats already Stack ( maybe Burn) in the SMT.

Flagwars:

Im with you. Nobody should get a Flag because of a opinion. Thats destroy the hole idea of steem.

SMTs can be a solution for it.

I learned Steem is slow, but it goes better and better.

Will I need to freeze SP to create an SMT ?
Still don't get how that all is supposed to work.

I think there'll be just a fee of 3 STEEM in order to create one.

I am looking at the token creation parameters right now.
(Found them)

https://github.com/steemit/steem/blob/master/libraries/wallet/include/steem/wallet/wallet.hpp

I don't talk or read code, so tell me if you find something of interest there :D

Let me teach you ;)

      *  @param control_account The name of the controlling account
      *  @param symbol The asset symbol of the created token
      *  @param schedule_time The time the token is applicable
      *  @param json_emission_unit A JSON representation of an emission unit
      *  @param interval_seconds The seconds between intervals
      *  @param interval_count The number of intervals
      *  @param lep_time The time of the left endpoint
      *  @param rep_time The time of the right endpoint
      *  @param lep_abs_amount The absolute emission amount of the left endpoint
      *  @param rep_abs_amount The absolute emission amount of the right endpoint
      *  @param lep_rel_amount_numerator The relative emission numerator of the left endpoint
      *  @param rep_rel_amount_numerator The relative emission numerator of the right endpoint
      *  @param rel_amount_denom_bits The about of bits to shift for the relative denominator
      *  @param remove Indicates whether an emission should be added or removed
      *  @param floor_emissions Indicates whether we should consider the lowest or highest value with regards to relative and absolute emissions
      *  @param broadcast To broadcast this transaction or not

These are the parameters you can set for an smt.

That is pretty much what I could find, but that gives me a good enough idea of how it is supposed to work.

Interesting idea. Haven't been here long enough to form an honest opinion. But I like people who challenge norms with new ideas.

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Maybe if you had come here and not joined the profiteers in wrecking the price your opinions might hold more weight with those of us that warned you about what you were doing.

Remember telling us to get bent?
You don't get to change sides now.

  ·  4 months ago (edited)

Still staring at your Steem vs BTC points...

I personally believe that how STEEM is produced is a little like how BTC has its miners.

(in a very different context and process)

Another major difference I am still seeing and missing is BTC is valued because it is used.

How did BTC originally marketed themselves (when they start marketing it)? The ease of transfer wealth with no bank transfer problems

STEEM trumphed it as (almost) seamless transaction .

That was how I was attracted to STEEM.

(other than the positive side of generating (mining) the STEEM, SBD and SP without investment of machinese and tons of electric power and cooling system)

Not that juicing your brain for great content in the middle of the night with your laptop on, fan on, light on to create something great and readable is not important

The main currency should be as little opinionated as possible, while unique SMTs can decide on their own what behavior they will allow and thus which categories of stakeholders they want to attract.

I certainly share your sentiments too. We need to find a way to unite the various positive interests on the Steem blockchain. Hopefully, things will fall in place in the coming days. Thanks for the massive support all the way - I sincerely appreciate it.